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  1. #1
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    Striker Spring Weight


    I recently did a trigger polish job, and installed a Lone Wolf trigger stop in my G23. I was given advice here NOT to install the 4lb. striker spring, except in a comp gun, due to reliability issues and light primer strikes which could prove deadly in a carry gun. I followed that advice. Lone wolf told me to leave the 6lb. trigger spring in also, over the 5lb. that came with the kit, saying that the it would give me a smoother trigger pull. I heeded that advice, although I didn't understand the mechanics behind it.

    I did install a Lone Wolf 3.5lb. connector, which I polished because the plating looked fairly rippled, and it polished up very well and smooth.

    So, I'm one of those that can never leave well enough alone. I can't help it, and am too old to change now. I'm almost compulsively inquisitive. I had to find out what the stock striker spring weight that is in the G23 was, and that was easy enough. 5.5lbs. So, if the difference between a comp spring and a carry spring was 1.5lbs. and I got a good trigger with that combination, would .5lbs or 1/3 of the difference between go and no go, make a difference. My first guess was no, but I'm talking a 33% difference. It should relate to a noticeable difference in trigger pull, I would guess

    So, I found a 5lb. striker spring and it's on it's way. Any thoughts on this? Yea? Nay? Good? Evil?

    Should take less than 30 minutes or less to do. Without a trigger pull gauge , I'll have to have a serious difference to notice a change at all.

    Maybe I should stop goofing around with stuff, but I don't think I own a completely stock gun....period. At the least my hunting rifles have all had Timney triggers installed.
    My M4 has a Wilson Combat Single stage 3.5lb "3 Gun" trigger in it. Both of my M&P's have APEX FSS triggers with approx. 3.5 ~4.0 triggers with so little take up and overtravel that they actually feel like 1911A1 triggers, speaking of 1911's and modifications.....

    Back to the Glock, I wonder where the line is between a comp trigger and a reliable carry trigger actually is? Some of you armorers (yep I know the blood oath thing about non-standard parts, spec's etc..) want to weigh in here? I'm interested in hearing any advice, predictions, etc.

    Thanks,

    FT
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortTom View Post
    I recently did a trigger polish job, and installed a Lone Wolf trigger stop in my G23. I was given advice here NOT to install the 4lb. striker spring, except in a comp gun, due to reliability issues and light primer strikes which could prove deadly in a carry gun. I followed that advice. Lone wolf told me to leave the 6lb. trigger spring in also, over the 5lb. that came with the kit, saying that the it would give me a smoother trigger pull. I heeded that advice, although I didn't understand the mechanics behind it.

    I did install a Lone Wolf 3.5lb. connector, which I polished because the plating looked fairly rippled, and it polished up very well and smooth.

    So, I'm one of those that can never leave well enough alone. I can't help it, and am too old to change now. I'm almost compulsively inquisitive. I had to find out what the stock striker spring weight that is in the G23 was, and that was easy enough. 5.5lbs. So, if the difference between a comp spring and a carry spring was 1.5lbs. and I got a good trigger with that combination, would .5lbs or 1/3 of the difference between go and no go, make a difference. My first guess was no, but I'm talking a 33% difference. It should relate to a noticeable difference in trigger pull, I would guess

    So, I found a 5lb. striker spring and it's on it's way. Any thoughts on this? Yea? Nay? Good? Evil?

    Should take less than 30 minutes or less to do. Without a trigger pull gauge , I'll have to have a serious difference to notice a change at all.

    Maybe I should stop goofing around with stuff, but I don't think I own a completely stock gun....period. At the least my hunting rifles have all had Timney triggers installed.
    My M4 has a Wilson Combat Single stage 3.5lb "3 Gun" trigger in it. Both of my M&P's have APEX FSS triggers with approx. 3.5 ~4.0 triggers with so little take up and overtravel that they actually feel like 1911A1 triggers, speaking of 1911's and modifications.....

    Back to the Glock, I wonder where the line is between a comp trigger and a reliable carry trigger actually is? Some of you armorers (yep I know the blood oath thing about non-standard parts, spec's etc..) want to weigh in here? I'm interested in hearing any advice, predictions, etc.

    Thanks,

    FT
    Tom, predictions are easy so instead I will offer you this food for thought. There are multiple reasons we armorers stay the "party line" and no it isn't the koolaid either. Allow my thought pattern here, you are faced with a situation where you pull your Glock in self defense. The situation calms almost as quickly as it started until the person makes an unexpected move in reflex your finger goes to the trigger and boom. No you didn't plan on shooting yet and you had done everything right until that moment and even then you still felt that way. The human nature can't stop the body's autonomic response (fight or flight) and the adrenaline is pumping and there is nothing you can do about it. The end result is BOOM. Allow me to take this just a little farther; think about the famous "New York Triggers" The reason they came about in the first place was because the 29,000 members of the NYPD were having too many "accidental" shootings. The officer was holding someone at gunpoint and all of a sudden....bang. So NYPD got with Glock and the 8 pound NY Trigger was born. But that isn't the end to this story quite yet boys and girls....NYPD even after the change was still having far too many unintentional shootings so back to the drawing board and the New York 2 Trigger was born all 12 pounds of her. Most people do just fine with the stock 5.5 pound trigger pull and it will also save you more grief. My last point is this (I promise it is the last) when the investigation comes and your firearm is examined and tested the first question was why did you need to a softer trigger pull and who did the work. The attorneys eat this up. Now you know why we don't and mostly won't modify a Glock that is used as an everyday carry firearm. Be SAFE.....Shoot WELL
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  3. #3
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    I have read this until I can not remain silent anymore ... when was the last case of a prosecutor testing a weapon for trigger pull ?


    Do they have George Zimmerman's weapon in the lab hooked up to pulls, gages, and weights, testing to see if it complies with the OEM specifications ?

    Nope and if I were a betting person I'd bet that is not going to happen either .....


    I will stand corrected if some reports can be posted stating that this is happening in shooting cases being prosecuted today.
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    I think the issue is more applicable in the muddy world of "Civil Court" vs "Criminal Court". In respect to the George Zimmerman case, if indeed he is found criminally innocent, the odds are that he will be sued in a "civil court" for wrongful death. In that type of proceeding, that's where an "altered gun" would be likely to be used against the shooter.

    If one is fighting for your life in a gunfight, you would want any advantage possible. If there is a tragic unintended consequence, a stray shot that hits a bystander for instance, anything and everything is going to become "material".

    I understand that a "better trigger" would not cause a wrongful death, only a "bad shooting" would... But in a civil court? Who knows? I just pray I never have to find out....
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortTom View Post
    Back to the Glock, I wonder where the line is between a comp trigger and a reliable carry trigger actually is? Some of you armorers (yep I know the blood oath thing about non-standard parts, spec's etc..) want to weigh in here? I'm interested in hearing any advice, predictions, etc.

    Thanks,

    FT
    Part of that line comes because of the difference between competition and carry ammo... Competition ammo is usually loaded lighter than self defense ammo... different springs are used for these light rounds... change to carry ammo (+p or whatever) and you'll need to use heavier recoil springs...

    Most Glock competition shooters use Federal primers so they can run light striker springs to get the trigger pull weight down... change to carry ammo with standard (CCI or whatever) primers and you'll probably get some light strikes... even if your lightened striker has an extended firing pin tip... It may be only once every 40 rounds or so, but you can't leave that to chance for a carry gun.

    So, my advise is... don't try to hot rod a carry gun... not even a little... not even up to the/a line...
    "While the anti-gunners seem very concerned about the "one life" that your firearm might take -- they are not very concerned about the lives it will save." Jon H. Gutmacher, Florida Firearms - Law, Use & Ownership

  6. #6
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    First of all, this debate was not what I was looking for, I was looking for a technical answer or educated best guess. I see this type of thing happen on an M&P forum all of the time.
    Someone will inevitably (even though there are already 10 threads on the exact same subject) ask, do you think Smith will ever make a M&P in 10mm. No more than 3 posts later, someone will answer, "you don't need one" because (fill in the blanks). I find it humorous, but see it enough to think that there must be some psychological influence there somewhere.

    Before I address OSS's concerns, let me say that I believe that the "3.5 lb. trigger pull is the threshold for a competition trigger" is fictional. There is no real threshold as to what a competition trigger is. Nothing recorded, nada. Most major gun builders, such as Les Baer, Ed Brown, Wilson Combat, will only do anything under that for competition shooters only, and you'd better be known well enough to prove to them that's exactly what the gun is intended for.

    Every 1911 I've ever owned long enough to keep got or had a trigger job of somewhere between 3.5 ~ 4lb. I feel if a person considers this too light, by all means, stay stock or if possible, go higher.

    Otintx has it absolutely correct. I won't repeat him, except that I want to throw-up every time I hear about light triggers and (my addition) reloads being the tools of attorneys everywhere to turn the tables on the good guys and put them in prison while the bad guy walks away with millions. It doesn't happen. I challenge anyone to find multiple cases of this. Police departments have been hit with lawsuits, but as with the Glock, arbitrary numbers were thrown out by prosecutors and deparments to basically overcome what was poor training, not a 5.5lb. stock trigger pull of a Glock pistol. New York? Basically all they did was duplicate the revolver and endanger under trained cops, and civilians when that trigger throws a flyer 4 feet from the target. Of course, in New York you can't even get a 32oz. big gulp, they want to keep you that safe...

    I have never heard, except anecdotally where a reload gets someone thrown in jail either. A self defense bullet is designed to incapacitate a bad guy. Nothing you or I could dream up, assuming standard components, can do any more harm than what's available over the counter. I only throw this in, because it's bound to pop up in the same (an attorney will get you if you use reloaded ammo) discussion. Please cite me at least more than one case, where an evidence collector collected a shell casing after a justifiable self-defense shooting, and present to the prosecutor that the shooter may have been using reloads. I heard that same argument, over and over in the 80's. A clown named Massad Ayoob was espousing all kinds of "legal" advice, that included. Then good ol' Mas wasn't heard from for a time. Why? Because he was caught "embellishing" and the bigger name magazines of the time dropped him. He continued to work for some of the lesser quality publications at the time, and has since made a bit of a comeback, as 2 and 3 new generations don't know about or was even born during the heyday good 'ol Mas. I bring this up because things like that are another venue for B.S. spreading like wildfire. Now we have the internet, and it can spread at the speed of light.

    To OSS (man I wish I could figure out this multi-quote thing). Let me quote from this "Living with Glocks" by Robert H. Boatman, from a chapter titled the Enigmatic Glock Trigger.
    "The concept of competition only triggers, is, of course, the invention of lawyers to protect their clients from fellow lawyers, suing on behalf of jerks with empty heads and heavy hands, who have accidently stumbled on the fact they are unqualified to operate light machinery".

    To be fair to OSS, it does go on to explain the same points that OSS did about motor skills under stress, etc.

    What it also does, I can't quote all of chapter 14 in the book, explain is that the 5.5 or higher average trigger pull on the Glock was not a majestic golden nugget of knowledge that fell out of the mind(s) of G. Glock, and other Glock engineers that this is the absolutely non-negotiable, swear on your mother's grave, holy grail of trigger pulls, and thou shalt not screw with it, so help me Glock. It was settled upon a good jumping off point for the average shooter. Glock, in his own words, realized that different people had different needs as far as triggers. LEO Departments can go higher, average shooters can stay around that number, and competitors can go as low as the rules allow.

    OSS is also absolutely correct about motors skills under stress. As we progressed further and further in the military, as far as our pistol and rifle shooting skills went, that was pounded into our brains ad nauseam. And for good reason. My only reason to debate OSS's position, is, that 5.5lbs is not the majic number where those mechanics of the brain and trigger finger meet. Glocks lawyers probably feel pretty "litigation proof" with that number, also. However, I've shot in lanes next to people who I don't think had any business firing anything more lethal than a cap gun. No "imposed" limit could make them safe.

    So, in summary, between 3.5 and 4.0lbs, is for me, just right. For someone else, they may be as happy as a maggot on road kill to shoot any firearm with a stock trigger, regardless of weight. And for some, 12lb. trigger's may be on the light side of safe. I'm going farther out on a limb here and say that the "thou shall not touch a stock Glock trigger" is the party line of Glock lawyers". For myself, if I can get my trigger to 4lbs. and after considerable time at the range, feel that it's not too light, then I'll do it, if it makes the hair stand up on the back of my head, or I get misfires, hangfires, or other failures traced to modifications, I will put the stock components back in it ASAP. You can bank on that.

    So, to answer my original question, does anyone know where a 5lb. striker spring will put me (approximately) in terms of trigger pull weight, considering the modifications I've already done, or should I say would you care to venture a guess?

    _Jb I'm not hot rodding my gun, I see it as tuning. I do realize the dangers of light primer strikes, I thought I addressed that in my original post. I don't want to get near that point, and that was the reason I did not install the 4lb.striker spring that came with the kit, when advised by folk here that that was the drop dead weight that you don't want to cross, without the danger of light primer strikes. For every trigger system there is a "do not push the limit" weight. I've gotten scope eye from shooting a buddy's custom german rifle with a double set trigger, from the bench. I think that when set, that rear trigger could be measured in ounces. I know I didn't like it and had something the size of an egg over the top of my eye with a nice crescent crease in the skin. 1911's have had the sear's stone so far as to turn them into "machine pistols", and impart pieces of slide into one's skull.. For me, like I've said, that perfect number comes in right between 3.5 and 4.0. If I can't get a 4.0lb trigger with a Glock, that is not both safe and reliable, then I'll know I've crossed a line.

    Thanks, it has been a great conversation, and I'm sure there will be more replies.

    FT
    P.S. One more technical question? Can someone pleeeeezee explain to me how to use that multi-quote feature?
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  7. #7
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    Click the "Multi-Quote This Message" button for each message you want to quote (except the last one)... a check mark will appear.

    Click "Reply With Quote" on the last message and all of the messages will be quoted in the reply box.
    "While the anti-gunners seem very concerned about the "one life" that your firearm might take -- they are not very concerned about the lives it will save." Jon H. Gutmacher, Florida Firearms - Law, Use & Ownership

  8. #8
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    FWIW FT, i still read Mas' articles as I get all of the gun magazines monthly/bi-monthly, and have to agree he has been on a decline for awhile as far as the articles being full of tech and not injected with personal observations.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otintx View Post
    FWIW FT, i still read Mas' articles as I get all of the gun magazines monthly/bi-monthly, and have to agree he has been on a decline for awhile as far as the articles being full of tech and not injected with personal observations.
    In the late 70's through the 80's, I assumed (see, I'm stupid already) that everything he said was carved in stone. Turns out a lot of what he said/claimed/did/ was filler for magazine articles to sell. I lost all respect for the guy when certain things came to light. Back then he was usually in Shooting Times, Guns and Ammo, and most of the Peterson Publishing sister magazines. Then he went dark. The rest is history.

    FT
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  10. #10
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    Striker Spring Weight Phase II

    O.K., if anyone's reading this thread, besides those who've responded let me start with a disclaimer. I am not a Glock Armorer. Heed any advice of an armorer, over my experimenting for your own personal safety and that of others.

    O.K. So here are the following changes I've made to a stock G23. Complete polish job, including re-polishing the Lone Wolf connector that came with a kit I bought from Lone Wolf. I installed the Lone Wolf Trigger stop. I did not install the 4lb. striker spring, heeding the advice of other's about the danger of light primer strikes, and that would basically render the weapon usless as a self-defense gun, being that it would possibly fail any time or multiple times due to light primer strikes and misfires, hang fires and whatever else might go wrong.

    I installed a heavier (6lb.) trigger spring at the advice of Lone Wolf, having said it would give a smoother take up. I've read all of my own material, including The Complete Glock Reference by PTOOMA publishing. By the way, I would recommend this book to anyone who might be new to Glocks, and working on their own guns. It was recommended to me by folks (armorers) on this forum, and I think if you only buy one accessory for your Glock, this would be a good start. However, for the life of me, all of my research couldn't explain how a heavier trigger spring made for a lighter, smoother take-up, but it did, so I'll leave it to greater minds than mine to explain.

    Here's where it got sticky. The standard glock striker spring is 5.5lbs. according to my research, and 4lbs. is too light, so I wanted to try a 5lb. striker spring, reducing striker spring weight by 0.5lbs. That raised some eyebrows, from some very qualified people. Safety, of course was the main concern again. The 5lb. striker spring came today (plus I wisely bought several more spring cups), just in case.

    The take up and break were discernible, with the new striker spring, and the break felt good, but that is absolutely subjective, as I didn't have a trigger pull gauge to measure the weight of trigger pull with a 5.5lb spring. I'm thinking about 1/2lb. or a tad more. I have a Lyman digital trigger pull gauge on the way, so I'll know the exact weight.
    But OSS, and others were concerned about [I]safety[I], not actual trigger pull weight. I still heed their advice, but will save that for the next paragraph. I wanted to see if I could lower take-up, trigger break weight and STILL be safe.

    So, I've got 150 rounds of Federal Ammo, (it seems the consensus is that they are harder than CCI or Win.) I've got a couple of hundred rounds of Win White Box FMJ, and a couple of hundred rounds of Hornady XTP. That's all I'm willing to shoot right now, because of difficulties in replacing it, but that's going to have to be the basis for my SPC. I know a few hundred data points would not satisfy any Quality Engineer, but for now that's what I'll have to deal with. One failure of any kind, and all bets are off. The 5.5lb. striker spring will go back into the gun, and that will be that. I do have a conversion barrel and a lot of 9mm to shoot, but I don't want to include another "modification" into the equation, that by itself may give bad results.

    Now, the next step. If the 5.0lb striker spring weight proves safe, I'm thinking of purchasing a Pyramid Trigger System, so that I can adjust out a lot of the take up, as well as over travel.

    Now I'm pretty sure I have qualified Glock armorers rolling their eyes....... I didn't take the armorer's "blood oath", I just don't want to bleed any of my own...

    Any ideas? Suggestions? wan't to call me names?.... Feel free to do so.

    FT
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