Heavy Bullets Shoot Softer - Page 2
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  1. #11
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    Newton's 3rd law of gravity? I initially "figured" that a heavier bullet would be more affected by gravity and therefore hit lower... Wrong! Hell, what do I know?

    Pass the Tylenol....
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  2. #12
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    Watching that 45 slow mo video was amazing thank you for posting it.

    But it really makes me depressed of how ancient and antiquated our current Weapons handguns or firearms today really are. I might as well be watching video of a Pirate gun being fired or a Musket. I really wish I would be around able to see what technology is around 100 years from now.



    Quote Originally Posted by __jb View Post
    I've always heard that heavier bullets have more inertia and stay in the barrel longer... Muzzle rise moves the point of impact higher. I don't know if that's accurate...



    Here's an interesting ultra slow motion close up video of a .45 ACP bullet in a semi-automatic pistol... Looks like the slide and barrel are still moving straight back when the bullet exits the barrel...

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by icecold View Post
    ...But it really makes me depressed of how ancient and antiquated our current Weapons handguns or firearms today really are. I might as well be watching video of a Pirate gun being fired or a Musket. I really wish I would be around able to see what technology is around 100 years from now.
    I don't know if firearms will become obsolete, or will change that much.

    Remember, the 1911 is 102 years old now, and parts from original issue 1911s fit in today's production guns..well, most of them, anyway. Sure, the 1911 is overly complicated, but it has survived.

    That's not to say that improvements haven't occurred, they certainly have. But I think the basics of using combustion to produce gas that pushes a projectile will remain.

    Electric ignition of the propellant might be a useful change, that way we wouldn't be dependent on primers!

    That is possibly less than 2₵ worth on this topic!

    Chris


    Chris
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    Abraham Lincoln



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    Quote Originally Posted by EdF702 View Post
    Newton's 3rd law of gravity? I initially "figured" that a heavier bullet would be more affected by gravity and therefore hit lower... Wrong! Hell, what do I know?

    Pass the Tylenol....
    yes as newton proved gravity sucks and sucks equaly no mater how heavy you are
    He who fights to long against dragons becomes a dragon himself. No one bullies with more ravenous expertise than those who have been bullied STOP THE BULLYING

  6. #15
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    Since I'm a nerd, I had to play around with the equations. Newton's 2nd law: Force = mass X acceleration. Moving things around algebraically, we get: acceleration = Force / mass.
    Another useful equation is for pressure: Pressure = Force / Area. Moving stuff around again, we get Force = Pressure X Area. If we plug this equation for Force into the first equation, we have a new equation that states: acceleration = (Pressure X Area) / mass.

    acceleration in this case is the initial acceleration of the projectile. We know also from Newton that "every action has an equal and opposite reaction." So the acceleration imposed on the projectile will also be opposed by the mass of the firearm, and your hands/arms/shoulders. I'm looking at this from a 30,000 ft view, so all this is not "exact", but simplified enough that I can make calculations anyways...

    I converted all the units to metric because it's simpler for me to work in metric units. Using Winchester's published reload data that GT4point6 provided, I calculated the instantaneous acceleration resulting from the peak published pressure.

    acceleration = (Pressure X Area) / mass:
    For the 115 grain projectile, with a peak pressure of 29,400 cup, the acceleration equals 19.27 meters/second^2
    For the 147 grain projectile, with a peak pressure of 27,900 cup, the acceleration equals 14.23 meters/second^2

    I love it when theory and the "real world" agree.
    Now I'm gonna have to do this for 124 grain projectiles. That's what I shoot!

    <edit> Just found the source, and it has data for 125 grain bullets: 6.8 grains of HS-6, 1,169 ft/sec; 27,100 cup.
    Using the above equation the 125 grain bullet has an acceleration of 16.22 meters/second^2
    How about that - it's right between the other two....

    BTW, keep in mind I am making a huge simplification by implying that instantaneous bullet acceleration is directly proportional to greater felt recoil.
    Last edited by rangerbluedog; 07-10-2013 at 07:09 PM. Reason: added 125 grain calculations. corrected units for acceleration.
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  7. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by rangerbluedog View Post
    Since I'm a nerd, I had to play around with the equations. Newton's 2nd law: Force = mass X acceleration. Moving things around algebraically, we get: acceleration = Force / mass.
    Another useful equation is for pressure: Pressure = Force / Area. Moving stuff around again, we get Force = Pressure X Area. If we plug this equation for Force into the first equation, we have a new equation that states: acceleration = (Pressure X Area) / mass.

    acceleration in this case is the initial acceleration of the projectile. We know also from Newton that "every action has an equal and opposite reaction." So the acceleration imposed on the projectile will also be opposed by the mass of the firearm, and your hands/arms/shoulders. I'm looking at this from a 30,000 ft view, so all this is not "exact", but simplified enough that I can make calculations anyways...

    I converted all the units to metric because it's simpler for me to work in metric units. Using Winchester's published reload data that GT4point6 provided, I calculated the instantaneous acceleration resulting from the peak published pressure.

    acceleration = (Pressure X Area) / mass:
    For the 115 grain projectile, with a peak pressure of 29,400 cup, the acceleration equals 19.27 gram-meters/second^2
    For the 147 grain projectile, with a peak pressure of 27,900 cup, the acceleration equals 14.23 gram-meters/second^2

    I love it when theory and the "real world" agree.
    NOTE: all the above is theoretical, and is nowhere near exact...
    Now I'm gonna have to do this for 124 grain projectiles. That's what I shoot!
    Cool! Thanks!
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  8. #17
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    rangerbluedog gets my thanks for providing an actual explanation for why light bullets accelerate faster, and why they feel snappier. I am in your debt!

    Chris
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  9. #18
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    My 2 cents worth. Yes it takes longer for a heavier bullet to exit the barrel than a lighter bullet. (slower so stays longer in the barrel) The energy of the heavier bullet is also less because energy is related to the square of the velocity but directly related to mass. So the 147s I have shot in my G17s "feel" like they have less of a recoil than higher velocity 115s likely because the energy they do have is expended over a longer period of time. The pressure curve might also be flatter. Federal agencies are switching to the slower 147s so I assume they feel that although they have less energy they have better stopping power. New bullet designs will apparently open up at lower velocities. However, many sporting goods stores I have talked to will not stock 147 gr 9mm. Why? Because apparently many guns will not work well with these loads. The typical comment from them is "Glocks will handle anything." But the government would not go this rout unless they have tested them well with their issued carry pistols, but apparently many guns don't like them. They are also over the maximum bullet weights specified in the NATO specs that most guns are designed to. I have not experienced them shooting high in my Glocks however I have heard this from LE when switching to Gen4s. So in my experience they do seem to shoot "softer" than lighter 9mm loads. Just my thoughts.

  10. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimFS View Post
    My 2 cents worth. Yes it takes longer for a heavier bullet to exit the barrel than a lighter bullet. (slower so stays longer in the barrel) The energy of the heavier bullet is also less because energy is related to the square of the velocity but directly related to mass. So the 147s I have shot in my G17s "feel" like they have less of a recoil than higher velocity 115s likely because the energy they do have is expended over a longer period of time. The pressure curve might also be flatter. Federal agencies are switching to the slower 147s so I assume they feel that although they have less energy they have better stopping power. New bullet designs will apparently open up at lower velocities. However, many sporting goods stores I have talked to will not stock 147 gr 9mm. Why? Because apparently many guns will not work well with these loads. The typical comment from them is "Glocks will handle anything." But the government would not go this rout unless they have tested them well with their issued carry pistols, but apparently many guns don't like them. They are also over the maximum bullet weights specified in the NATO specs that most guns are designed to. I have not experienced them shooting high in my Glocks however I have heard this from LE when switching to Gen4s. So in my experience they do seem to shoot "softer" than lighter 9mm loads. Just my thoughts.
    Jim,

    That's a LOT more than 2 cents' worth, thanks for passing that along. The more explanations I read from people like you who do understand the physics, the better I understand the matter. I now have read enough from you and rangerbluedog to convince myself of a new "rule of thumb": buy ammo with the heaviest bullets you can get, at least for handguns.

    Good work!

    Chris
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    Abraham Lincoln



  11. #20
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    Does anybody else think we should "stick" this thread, and maybe move it over to Glock Tech / Warranty?

    There's enough good information here on bullet weight and recoil that I think we will re-use the thread quite a lot, but it may be my own enthusiasm getting away with me again. If you think this thread is worth "sticking", please speak up.

    Chris
    "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

    Abraham Lincoln



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