Open Carry State and LEO?
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  1. #1
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    Open Carry State and LEO?

    Anyone here an active/retired LEO in an Open Carry State?

    The reason I am asking is because I was an LEO for over thirty years in an open carry State but have since retired in 2011.

    I wanted to invite anyone that may be interested to read the below article and view these two videos here

    BRIDGEPORT, CONNECTICUT – The state’s open-carry law has again caused a stir, this time when a man wearing a holstered firearm walked into a downtown Subway restaurant and recorded an encounter with police on video.

    Picked up Thursday by a number of websites, the video shows the viewpoint of the armed man, who is repeatedly asked by Bridgeport police officers to show them his gun permit.

    The footage, said to have been recorded Monday, raises questions about the rights of permit holders to openly carry weapons – and about the rights of police to demand documentation.

    In the video, the cameraman repeatedly refuses officers’ requests to show his permit, arguing that the law does not compel him to comply.

    “I’m not showing you anything,” he says. “I want to order my food and get up out of here.”

    “Can I see your permit, please?” one officer repeats.

    As the two argue, the cameraman says, “Am I a suspect?”

    “I’m just checking to see if you have a permit?” the officer says.

    A second officer arrives, and says, “We just had a complaint, right downtown ... a block away. Now the man’s asking you for your ID; that‘s all he’s asking for.”

    After a third officer arrives, the man with the camera is told that Subway is refusing to serve him. He leaves, telling the uniformed men that they don’t know the law.

    Commenting on the authenticity of the video, Bridgeport public safety spokesman Michael Giannotti said, “To my knowledge, those are our officers.”

    A question of law

    State law allows a person with a valid permit to openly display a handgun, provided he or she is also carrying the permit itself. But does that person have the right to refuse the show the permit to police?

    A Connecticut State Police training memo on citizens’ right to carry handguns instructs troopers not to arrest a person with the proper permit “merely for publicly carrying a handgun in plain view.’’ But if individuals refuse to show the permit, they may be subject to arrest on the separate charge of interfering with police, the memo states.

    Bridgeport Police Lieutenant Chris LaMaine also wrote in an email to members of the department, “If the person refuses, the officer can arrest the person for Interfering with an Officer.’’

    The state law, Public Act 15-216, is more specific, stipulating that the permit holder must show proof to “a law enforcement officer who requests it for purposes of verifying the permit’s validity or person's identity if the officer observes the person carrying a handgun and has reasonable suspicion of a crime.”

    Attorney Frank Riccio Jr., whose law office is in Bridgeport, said confrontations like the one on the video could present challenges to the law and its interpretation.

    “Because it’s brand new and we don’t really know the reasons behind it, it hasn’t been put into practice yet, this may be the test case, if you will,” Riccio said Thursday.

    The permit-request language is embedded in a law deals mostly with changing laws pertaining to the state Department of Correction, Riccio said, and grew from “our society having a heightened sense of alarm over firearms and pistol permits.”

    That concern was evidenced last month, in the thick of the Christmas shopping season, when a man entered the Connecticut Post Mall in Milford openly carrying a handgun.

    Cops later downplayed the Dec. 16 incident, but eyewitnesses said that the gun-toting man caused a huge disturbance at the mall. Scores of police, many armed with assault rifles, converged on the Macy’s store there, and were also positioned at all of the mall exits, witnesses said.

    The mall does not allow civilians to carry firearms or other weapons on the property, which is the management’s prerogative. Police said that the suspect had a pistol permit, but because of the mall’s policy, he was escorted off the property.

    Right of refusal

    Subway Corp., which has its headquarters in Milford, released a statement on the video that circulated Thursday, purportedly shot Monday at its Main Street, Bridgeport location:

    “All Subway restaurants are individually owned and operated by franchisees who are part of the communities in which they live and work,” the statement said. “Franchisees are required to follow all local, state and federal laws.”

    Av Harris, spokesman for Bridgeport Mayor Joe Ganim, commended police for their handling of the Subway incident.

    “Look at it from the point of view of law enforcement,’’ Harris said. “There has been an uptick in shootings and violent crime in Bridgeport in the past year, and these officers were responding to a complaint, and they acted with restraint and professionalism.’’

    State law does allow businesses to post that no weapons are allowed inside, and they may refuse to serve customers who are armed. Weapons are banned near schools, courthouses and certain other public buildings.

    In August, 2013, less than a year after the Sandy Hook School shootings, the Starbucks on Church Hill Road in Newtown, about 1.5 miles from the school, closed early after gun-rights supporters rallied there.

    A sign posted on the front of the store said it did so “out of respect for Newtown and everything our community has been through ... We recognize there is significant passion surrounding the topic, However, we believe people should be sensitive to our community.”
    ~~~

    Here is my foremost questions:

    If you elect to approach and request a person visibly sporting a handgun w/o probable cause to produce a valid gun permit and they respond the way the subject in the video, can you arrest them and what would be the charge? IMO - It is not clear in the officers mind if he can arrest or what the charge would be.

    If you are responding to a radio call where the caller is reporting suspicious activity for the sole reason that the person is carrying a firearm, is that enough P/C for the stop in an Open Carry State?

    If you are responding to a radio call where the business owner calls because they have a store policy that prohibits firearms carry where a sign is prominently posted, is that enough P/C for the stop in an Open Carry State?

    FYI -I know all local laws an ordinances are different wherever you go. I would just like to hear any input concerning this issue by members.

  2. #2
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    IMO, outside of court buildings and the like, no person or business should be able or have the right to deny citizens their constitutional right to bear arms.

    But, there is a conundrum.....people are not use to seeing firearms. I believe that all citizens have the right to bear, unless their a felon of course. I believe they should not have to have a permit to bear, as it is their right to do so. Driving is privileged, so you must be licensed. But, how do we know that the person carrying is not a felon?

    In our society today, our country has made many Americans into felons. It's big business. We have more felons than any civilized nation in the world, bar none. We have more inmates than any country in the world, per ca pita.

    But, on the other hand, we are the free-est people in the world today. Does that mean we have more crime? I don't know that answer.

    But, if I think of law enforcement, and I'm the guy enforcing the law, how do I know if that guy packing, openly, is 'not' a felon? We need law and order without violating constitutional rights. Maybe citizens need to think for a minute. When catastrophic events occur in a local community, use common sense and understand that people become fearful and act accordingly. Conceal rather than open carry.

    I think we would all agree, that if crime is coming your way, the bad guy knows your packing, he will focus you first, because he wants the threat removed to his crime. But, on the other hand, those committing crimes against innocence, usually will choose those who cannot protect themselves.

    There does need to be more discussion. The constitution says we have the right to bear, and says nothing about needing a permit to do so. I am against any law which inhibits our constitutional freedom. So, needing a permit in a sense, is inhibiting that freedom. But, on the other hand, how do we know if gang members or violent felons are not packing?

    It is a question that brighter minds than mine, need to think about. Much debate needs to take place. And then, let the people decide.
    Last edited by tim414; 12-01-2016 at 10:20 AM.

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    However and IMHO, I have serious issues concerning OPEN CARRY.

    This is why I am AGAINST it in populated metro areas including their suburbs.

    This incident occurred on April 7, 2016 which was captured on surveillance camera.

    Link to video (cannot post link) send PM for url.

    Police are looking for this man who stole a handgun from the back pocket of another man ordering food at McDonald's.

    Silent Witness is looking to the public for help identifying a man who stole a gun from a man in line at a Phoenix McDonalds, officials said.

    On April 7, at Southern and Central Avenues the suspect approached a man ordering from behind before taking the pistol from the man's back pocket and running from the restaurant, according to Silent Witness spokesman Sgt. Jamie Rothschild.

    The victim then chased the suspect in an attempt to retrieve his stolen gun but the thief turned around and pointed the pistol at the victim before fleeing, according to Rothschild.

    The suspect is described as a black male between 18 and 25 years of age, 6 feet to 6 feet 2 inches tall and weighing approximately 160 pounds.

    Anyone with information is urged to contact Silent Witness at 480-948-6377 or toll free at 1-800-343-TIPS. Callers can remain anonymous and could be eligible for a $1000 reward for information leading to an arrest.
    ~~~

    IMHO — This victim (aka knucklehead) does not have a clue concerning threats that are lurking within his surrounding environment and has no concept on how to safeguard a loaded firearm on his person.

    Even nowadays, sworn officers have special thumb/finger button release holsters to prevent unauthorized possession. It is clear that the person who pulled off this bold quick theft and run stunt has no respect of others.

    I am sure this is a story he will want to pass on to his children! NOT
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackel1 View Post
    However and IMHO, I have serious issues concerning OPEN CARRY.

    This is why I am AGAINST it in populated metro areas including their suburbs.

    This incident occurred on April 7, 2016 which was captured on surveillance camera.

    Link to video (cannot post link) send PM for url.

    Police are looking for this man who stole a handgun from the back pocket of another man ordering food at McDonald's.

    Silent Witness is looking to the public for help identifying a man who stole a gun from a man in line at a Phoenix McDonalds, officials said.

    On April 7, at Southern and Central Avenues the suspect approached a man ordering from behind before taking the pistol from the man's back pocket and running from the restaurant, according to Silent Witness spokesman Sgt. Jamie Rothschild.

    The victim then chased the suspect in an attempt to retrieve his stolen gun but the thief turned around and pointed the pistol at the victim before fleeing, according to Rothschild.

    The suspect is described as a black male between 18 and 25 years of age, 6 feet to 6 feet 2 inches tall and weighing approximately 160 pounds.

    Anyone with information is urged to contact Silent Witness at 480-948-6377 or toll free at 1-800-343-TIPS. Callers can remain anonymous and could be eligible for a $1000 reward for information leading to an arrest.
    ~~~

    IMHO — This victim (aka knucklehead) does not have a clue concerning threats that are lurking within his surrounding environment and has no concept on how to safeguard a loaded firearm on his person.

    Even nowadays, sworn officers have special thumb/finger button release holsters to prevent unauthorized possession. It is clear that the person who pulled off this bold quick theft and run stunt has no respect of others.

    I am sure this is a story he will want to pass on to his children! NOT

    I too am not an open carry guy...but it is the 2A and people should not be hassled about it. If he was a suspect in the crime, fine, state that; and treat him as such. If not a suspect, let him be.

    A lot of things up my way that suck to include the burning of the US flag and the College refusing to fly the flag. I don't have to like it, I just must remember it is the law. Until the law or the Bill of Rights changes...it is what it is.

    I beleive NH and VT both have open carry and there have been no issues. Granted, they don't have a huge metropolitan presence, but still.

    I was in Wyoming a few weeks ago and a sign on the door made me smile. It said " Welcome to Wyoming, we assume everyone is armed."

    Words to live by...or die by.
    Last edited by 4DarkMatter; 12-01-2016 at 04:03 PM.

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    I can only speak for the laws in my state.

    Here in Oklahoma we have both open carry and concealed carry. A business owner has the right to post signage stating "no guns allowed" and any carrier violating the sign can be asked to leave. If they refuse, police can be called and a charge of trespassing charged will be filed.

    If approached by LE, the carrier must produce the CCW and DL upon demand/request, but only if carrying at the time of contact.
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    If approached by LE, the carrier must produce the CCW and DL upon demand/request, but only if carrying at the time of contact.
    Pretty much the same as Ohio. At one time open carry was permitted but I'm not sure how that's changed now that we have CC.

    As for open carry. It was used in Ohio to get CC laws passed. If you CC in your state I just don't know why you would open carry, specially in the city. Out hunting, going to the range sure. For personal protection, it just doesn't make sense to me.

    I'm not a LEO but shoot with quite a few both active and retired and they are not against CC. But they have a hard enough job without people trying to make a point with a weapon. I understand it's a Constitutional Right but common sense has to used when making a statement like this.

    According to the info posted by the OP, they could have arrested the guy for interfering with an officer. When you are carrying and asked for your permit, you should produce it IMO.

    We need to keep the LEO's on our side in this issue. They are in a tough enough spot already.

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    Cops are NOT lawyers so they may not understand all of your legal rights. The questions the OP asks kind of goes to that, wondering how each person would respond or how they've been instructed to respond. But cops are enforcement, they carry guns and they have a right to use them. So shut up, comply and deal with whatever rights were violated later - better than dealing with physical consequences. Arguing with police is just stupid. What are the odds you're going to win? And when you cross the stupid line, whatever happens to you after that is your own damn fault.

    BTW - when the Texas open carry law went into effect anti-gun groups encouraged their members to call the police every time they saw someone with a gun. Thinking they would overwhelm LE and cause a change in the law. I think in Tarrant Co (Fort Worth) they received 3 calls in a month and in Dallas they received 1 or 2. People in the cities didn't start open carrying so it's not been an issue.
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    Link to video (cannot post link)
    Here you go :

    Man steals gun from man in line at Phoenix McDonalds click here

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    Apparently some one let their guard down. Things can go from good to bad and bad to worse in a matter of milliseconds. I can open carry any where I want in the State of Oregon (with 3 exceptions) as can others in a lot of other States, but if you have your CCW,CHL, CWP or whatever your State calls it, why would you open carry. To me personally, unless I am out hunting or on my own property, I always carry concealed. The video by OTinTX is very real and will always be an issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otintx View Post
    Here you go :

    Link removed to post
    That's it!

    Thanks. I have not acquired enough posts under my belt to post links yet...

    I hope we did not violate any local protocol.
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