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help with shooting

13K views 44 replies 10 participants last post by  coop 
#1 ·
I know I have seen it posted, but can't find it.
There is a "pie chart" that will give you and idea of what you are doing wrong, base on your group.

I am still shooting a little left and low, about an inch off of center. I think this means that I am still pull the gun with my finger, or not "not hold it tight enough" with my left hand (enough opposite push), Does that sound right????????????

I am still shooting better with my Glcok 19 than I am with my Sig P250 and the group is very good, just low and left.
 
#2 · (Edited)
Is this it? http://www.txdpsa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=202 You're on the right track so far, and glad to see that you're troubleshooting rather than blaming the gun. I'm working on the same thing since my groups are slightly to the left at 25 yards. Using a USPSA target I'm getting mostly A hits, but some are in the C range.

When you say an inch off center, from what distance is that?

I'm assuming you're right handed. If you're shooting with two hands you should be holding the pistol more strongly with the support hand than the trigger hand. I've heard 60/40 -- 60% from the support hand and 40% with your dominant hand. No idea how one measures that; to me, 60/40 sounds like, "apply just a little more force with your support hand". Try this experiment: when you're shooting, squeeze your grip as tight as you can with the support hand and keep your trigger hand loose. See where your groups go.

Also, how much dry firing are you doing? If it's not "a lot" then it's something worth considering. Trigger control is definitely a huge portion of the low-left phenomenon. Here's a thread that I still go back to time and time again because it has such helpful information: http://www.glockfaq.com/content.aspx?ckey=glock_faq_trigger_technique_101.
 
#3 ·
I am shooting at about 10 yards, maybe a little less, there is a 7 yard line and I am just passed that. I have done some shots farther out at about 20 yards and I am just a little farther off, with couple in a little closer.

Dry firing is something I doing more and more. My dry fire is done with my Sig P250, because it is a double action only (DAO) and has a long pull, so I can keep pulling the trigger as much as I want.
I have 2 way to practice;
1=place a quarter on top of the slide and try to get to 50 dry fires before it comes off.
2=turn laser on and try to keep the light from moving around.
 
#8 ·
both guns, and my wife's HK40. So that tells me it is something that I am doing. There are times that I am right on, but that is only about 20% of the time.
I know it is me, when I had the Glock sights replaced, I shot way left, more than normal. One of the range guys shot it and it shot left for him. After an adjustment, he was dead center and I was a 1/2 left at 10 yards. I find it harder to shoot the Sig, bigger recoil, and a very long trigger pull.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Thanks for all the information, while dry firing, I have started using my left hand with more pressure to keep the gun from moving.

And I will work on these tricks
The tricks are:

1) Pull the DA with more finger through the trigger
2) Very tight support hand--use it to counteract any movement caused by pulling the trigger
3) Press the support hand thumb against the frame in a balanced way...balance the pressures
4) Focus upon pulling straight back
5) Shoot from the reset (There are only two pulls: the long pull and the reset pull. Almost all guns have this)
6) Understand that pressure must be balanced between the hands
7) The shooter can use his or her trigger finger as a stop by putting even more finger through the trigger guard. See Jerry Miculek's videos on shooting revolvers.

If someone can handle a 12-15 pound pull on a revolver, SIG, or similar gun, then anything else is easier. However, most people simply need something to blame for their failure and guns don't talk back.
 
#13 · (Edited)
went shooting today, for the most part, I was still low and left. But I did put a nice group on target at 12-14 yards.
I figured out that I was using too little finger and thought I was on the right path.

Stop at the range a little later in the day, and was talking to the guys at the range about a getting a lesson.
The manager, Chris took me back into the range and we talked about; how to stand, holding the gun, aiming, where to look, placement of my finger on the trigger, the need to pull smoothly on the trigger, breathing and I am thinking more that I can't think of right now.
He also had me step around the corner and he loaded my gun, then had me come back and present the gun and shoot. We found out that I was anticipating the recoil, because the gun wasn't loaded and you could see me push the gun down, so with that and the too little finger was making my shots go left and low.
So after hearing what I was doing wrong and being told the right way, I was putting shots in a very tight group right on target.
Now comes the part of remembering what I just learned and putting it to practices.
 
#14 ·
<snip>
He also had me step around the corner and he loaded my gun, then had me come back and present the gun and shoot. We found out that I was anticipating the recoil, because the gun wasn't loaded and you could see me push the gun down, so with that and the too little finger was making my shots go left and low.
So after hearing what I was doing wrong and being told the right way, I was putting shots in a very tight group right on target.
Now comes the part of remembering what I just learned and putting it to practices.
psych! Great way to diagnose that you were anticipating recoil. Another great drill is to have someone mix your live rounds with 1 or 2 snap caps. That way you won't know when you'll dry fire, and you'll be able to tell if you're still flinching.
 
#17 ·
Isn't it a great feeling when you get those "a ha!" moments and learn new ways to improve your shooting?

One of the things that cured my groups to the left problem was the way I held my grip. I was putting much more squeezing force in my shooting hand than my support hand. When I put more force in the support hand and focused on a smooth trigger pull, making sure that I wasn't tightening the rest of my fingers in the hand during the trigger squeeze, my groups stayed centered. Before I discovered that issue, my avatar shows my 25 yard groups still slightly leftward, firing at a medium-paced speed.

After working on the way I formed and held my 2 hand grip I ended up with this:
 
#19 ·
Thanks, jb. I should be more specific. I have about 100 rounds through the target. 2/3 of them were from 25 yards shooting at medium speed-- I'm guessing about 1-2 seconds between rounds. About 30 of my shots were Mozambique drills (drawing from a holster-- yes, my Serpa) at 10 yards. I can't remember now whether or not the taped C and D shots were to 10 yard or 25 yard ones...
 
#31 ·
Looks like he did
 
#24 ·
went today, allergies really bad, but I closed the error even a little more.

Started out shooting low and left, first 10 rounds and then stop and thought.
Next group was just a little left, and then I moved the shots in closer and had a nice group taking off the left side of my center.
 
#26 ·
I'm still having trouble shooting to the left, too. I shoot almost exactly 2 inches to the left at 25 feet. I'm going to try gripping tighter with my left hand next time.

Funny thing happened the last time I went to the range with a buddy. He asked if I wanted to shoot his new Kimber Ultra Carry II. I said sure and shot about 7 rounds. I was dead on accurate. POA = POI. I found his .45 ACP Kimber to be very easy to shoot when I was expecting otherwise.

I don't understand why this was the case...
 
#27 ·
Uh oh. I hope you're not thinking about defecting to Kimber country... at least sfguard'll be happy.

I'm wondering if it's your trigger pull more than the grip... but I have never fired a Kimber before. What kind of trigger do you have on your 2-inch-to-the-left Glock?
 
#34 · (Edited)
I try to get the arch of my right had as far up on the grip as possible, so my trigger finger seems to slant down over the trigger a bit. The middle of my trigger finger does touch the frame between the first and second knuckle.

If I hold the gun in my right hand and squeeze the grip like I would when I shoot, the gun moves to the left a bit. I can feel my finger pressing on the frame above the trigger. Hmm... Interesting... Seems **** gripping more firmly with my support hand and making sure my trigger finger does not touch the frame would be two good things to do.
If your finger touches the frame, the gun will move when you pull the trigger. Try rotating your hand so that knuckle moves slightly forward. You can help this along by using the "?" tip by putting the center of the trigger more toward the tip of the finger. Don't go too far though.

It also seems to indicate to me that you need a shorter length of pull or become a master at some weird Hindu body stretching art.

Additionally, verify that you are pulling straight back and not at an angle. I suspect the combination of a short finger/long LOP is causing you to pull back and left.

You can offset this movement by exerting extra pressure with the support hand and/or pressing *slightly* with the thumb on the side of the frame. You'll have to figure out what "balanced pressure" means to you. However, I do recommend that you not do the latter trick unless absolutely necessary. The only way to mitigate this when shooting with one hand is to tighten your grip and use the "?" trick.

I noticed that you're using a Glock 19 and a SIG P250. First off, dump the P250 and get another Glock 19 or 26. The reset on that P250 is terrible because it's like a revolver: it forces you to return the trigger fully forward for each shot. ICK! The Glock, on the other hand, has a very short reset similar to that of the 1911.

You should shoot "off the reset". This means your first shot in a sequence requires you to pull the trigger starting from the forward position. After the first shot, you will feel a click as you bring the trigger forward. This is the Glock reset engaging. The gun is now ready to fire, so don't release the trigger. Releasing the trigger results in wasted work and slows down your shooting. Pull from this shortened position for all subsequent shots. I recommend that you try this in dry practice first.

You may find that the Glock is still too long for you. In that case, look around for other guns that have shorter LOPs. I would suggest you look at the Springfield EMP, Browning Hi-Power, 1911 with short trigger (and possibly thin grip panels), and similar handguns.

Finally, take a notebook and ruler with you to the range. Document your grip, stance, target and results. I found this very helpful for developing consistency over a series of range sessions.
 
#35 ·
If your finger touches the frame, the gun will move when you pull the trigger. Try rotating your hand so that knuckle moves slightly forward. You can help this along by using the "?" tip by putting the center of the trigger more toward the tip of the finger. Don't go too far though.
Yes, that was an excellent tip. That's the first thing I plan to concentrate on tomorrow.

Additionally, verify that you are pulling straight back and not at an angle. I suspect the combination of a short finger/long LOP is causing you to pull back and left.
I actually have big hands and long fingers.

I've been trying to push my trigger finger in further to move the rounds to the right. I didn't realize my finger touching the frame could be a problem until you mentioned it and I dry fired my gun a few times.

I noticed that you're using a Glock 19 and a SIG P250. First off, dump the P250 and get another Glock 19 or 26. The reset on that P250 is terrible because it's like a revolver: it forces you to return the trigger fully forward for each shot. ICK! The Glock, on the other hand, has a very short reset similar to that of the 1911.
The Sig is not mine. I was checking out .380 pocket guns for a friend of mine... his wife actually.

I have a two 4th generatioin Glocks... a 17 and a 19. That's it.

You should shoot "off the reset". This means your first shot in a sequence requires you to pull the trigger starting from the forward position. After the first shot, you will feel a click as you bring the trigger forward. This is the Glock reset engaging. The gun is now ready to fire, so don't release the trigger. Releasing the trigger results in wasted work and slows down your shooting. Pull from this shortened position for all subsequent shots. I recommend that you try this in dry practice first.
I have been practicing this and recently started doing it. I'm a long way from perfect at it, but I'm getting better. I also have a bad habit of pulling the trigger when the sights are lined up, instead of waiting. I have a lot of bad habits! I'm slowly working through them.

You may find that the Glock is still too long for you. In that case, look around for other guns that have shorter LOPs. I would suggest you look at the Springfield EMP, Browning Hi-Power, 1911 with short trigger (and possibly thin grip panels), and similar handguns.
Nah, I like Glocks. I want to learn to shoot them correctly.

Finally, take a notebook and ruler with you to the range. Document your grip, stance, target and results. I found this very helpful for developing consistency over a series of range sessions.
Good idea.

Thanks again for the tips!
 
#36 · (Edited)
230-- Do you still do the bump drill yourself? I've been shooting strings off the trigger reset for a couple of months now and I don't know if the drill is helping me getting more of that surprise break. I like the wall drill, but I'm not sure how the bump drill helps with a trigger break.

In addition to adjusting the force of my support hand and shooting hand (mentioned earlier), one additional concept that helped center my groups is getting the feel of how to make sure the trigger is pulled straight back.

It's hard to describe, but when you look at your trigger finger, the first two knuckles (starting from the tip of the finger) are the ones that should help move the trigger the most. The third or punching knuckle (metacarpophalangeal joint in anatomy terms) should barely move at all. It's this knuckle that can provide the most leverage, which also means it has the greatest chance of leveraging the gun off the bulls eye.
 
#37 · (Edited)
I very rarely get the "surprise break". It's one of those expressions that is used all the time...I think it's more of a target shooter thing. There is no place for the "surprise break" during rapid fire. "The Bump Drill" teaches you where to expect the hammer to fall along the trigger pull. You will learn exactly where that is. Sometimes it does happen, but only when I'm doing very slow fire.

I don't do "The Bump Drill" often anymore...I just shoot frequently and dry fire on weeks I cannot hit the range. I will do it if I'm feeling rusty with a particular gun, but only for a few minutes.

It's hard to describe, but when you look at your trigger finger, the first two knuckles (starting from the tip of the finger) are the ones that should help move the trigger the most. The third or punching knuckle (metacarpophalangeal joint in anatomy terms) should barely move at all. It's this knuckle that can provide the most leverage, which also means it has the greatest chance of leveraging the gun off the bulls eye.
This is the "?" thing I was babbling on about.
 
#38 · (Edited)
JB, I recently installed a Ghost Rocket 3.5# trigger in my Gen 4 G17 and that REALLY improved my low left pulls... The improvement was, to me anyway, amazing. I was out in the desert shooting with my wife last weekend (her first time out since I did the trigger swap) and she now wants me to do the same for her Sig P226... The lighter, quicker break really helps with "slaps". The triggers on some of the "custom" 1911s are much shorter and lighter than stock Glocks, which may, based on my own experience, explain your results with the Kimber.

Good luck with your "quest"...
 
#40 ·
JB, I recently installed a Ghost Rocket 3.5# trigger in my Gen 4 G17 and that REALLY improved my low left pulls... The improvement was, to me anyway, amazing. I was out in the desert shooting with my wife last weekend (her first time out since I did the trigger swap) and she now wants me to do the same for her Sig P226... The lighter, quicker break really helps with "slaps". The triggers on some of the "custom" 1911s are much shorter and lighter than stock Glocks, which may, based on my own experience, explain your results with the Kimber.

Good luck with your "quest"...
Thanks, that's a good tip.

I plan to shoot a Glock GSSF meet in February and I think they would frown on a non-Glock connector. I'm not sure if they would take the gun apart and check, but I'd rather be legal... plus my 19 is my carry gun and my 17 is my home defense gun... I don't want to get too crazy swapping stuff out on them.

As soon as I can get a 4th generation G34 all bets are off... :)
 
#41 ·
I went to the range today and shot 200 rounds. About 150 in my 17 and 50 in my 19.

I practiced trigger finger control as 230therapy mentioned in his posts. Actually, I printed his posts out and read them again at the range. Found out that trying to place my right hand as high as possible on the grip put my trigger finger in a bad position. I was having to bend the third joint on my trigger finger to pull the trigger. That made my finger press against the frame and probably pushed my shots off to the left a bit.

Once I relocated my hand on the grip, it was easier to position my trigger finger so that it didn't press on the frame. It also made it easier to use the "?" trick that 230therapy suggested. The repositioning made it easier to pull the trigger straight back.

The bump drill was very helpful. To be honest, my best shots were when I was trying the bump drill. It wasn't a particularly fun drill, but it showed me that my shooting to the left is mostly hand positioning and bad trigger habits. I will continue to do the bump drill.

Thanks again for the tips, 230therapy! They helped. Now I need to continue to practice them.
 
#42 ·
I have the Sig P250 and have zero plans to get right of it. I just ordered the 357 ex-change kit for it, great price $249.00 shipped to me. So now my P250 will be a 9mm or 357.

Found a Sig Armorer who has modified the trigger and removed the slack and made the trigger pull smoother.

I know this gun has made my trigger pull smoother, and I will get better with it. To me it is just like shooting a revolver.
 
#43 ·
I also like our Sig (I'm slowly worming into the ownership of my wife's P226), it's a different experience than the Glocks, but enjoyable just the same. The Sig has taught me to appreciate the simplicity of the Glock, I was able to do my own trigger work on my G17... well with some help from Don Glock and some others on this forum, but one can't even purchase the parts to attempt that work (as I understand it) on a Sig. I enjoy dry firing (with protection on the firing pin) the Sig as the loooonnnnggg difficult trigger pull in DA mode is terrific practise for trigger break.

I read up, after your post, on the P250, interesting platform! So, that kind of disproves my comment above, but I think that modularity is particular to the P250 model, not so much with the metal frame guns. I'm planning on buying the caliber xchange kit with the coupon as well, still deciding between .357 Sig, .40 cal and 9mm. Will most surely go with 9mm, sharing with my wife of course... perhaps I should ask her?
 
#44 ·
Great to hear things are improving in your shooting!

Let's start a P250 thread. I'm interested in finding out about the gun's performance.
 
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