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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by __jb View Post
    Thank you very much! As usual, you have gone way beyond the call of duty in supplying an answer... But I appreciate it... Good information... Makes me wonder if some of the jams I see at our local steel matches could be caused by the Gold Metal Target ammunition. Seven FTEs out of 20 is quite a high percentage.
    You're welcome, it was my pleasure. I was surprised that the Buck Mark would shoot as much of the lower pressure ammo as it did without problems.

    The Buck Mark slide seems pretty light to me when compared with the Ruger bolt, making me think the Ruger will probably require different ammo, it might be more fussy. So, I will run the same tests with a Ruger Mk III later this week and will report the results. I'll also weigh the slide and bolt from the two different guns just to see if there's any correlation between FTEs and bolt weight with different ammo.

    I've never heard of a gunsmith screwdriver... Is this something sold by Browning specifically for the Buckmark? You have piqued my curiosity (once again!) with this comment...
    The Gunsmith Screwdrivers I use have a handle and a set of interchangeable bits, and I use these on ALL guns. These are good to have because you need to have a precise fit of the bit to the screw to avoid damaging gun screws. I believe this is so because gun screws often have to be installed (or removed) with a good deal of pressure, and because the screws are not always hardened (especially on some makes, like Uberti). Having a perfect bit-to-screw fit ensures that you can get the job done without damaging the screw, or having the screwdriver slip off the screw and scratch the gun. Consider the consequences of a screwdriver slipping and scratching a collectible handgun, versus slipping and scratching a two-by-four in your garage, and you begin to understand why the precision fit is needed, and why they can be so expensive.

    Here is a selection of sets from Brownells:

    MAGNA-TIP SUPER SETS? | Brownells.

    Here are more modestly-priced sets from MidwayUSA:

    Wheeler Engineering 89-Piece Professional-Plus Gunsmithing Screwdriver

    Chapman Model 8900 27-Piece Deluxe Screwdriver Set

    Wheeler Engineering 28-Piece Space-Saver Gunsmithing Screwdriver Set

    I used the basic Chapman set from MidwayUSA for many years, but when I started to work on my own more expensive guns, I went for the more elaborate Magna-Tip set from Brownells. With the Brownells set, you can replace every single individual bit if you damage one, which sometimes happens.

    It's important that the bits are "appropriately hardened": hard enough to work without breaking in most applications, but soft enough to "give" before the screw head does. Like bronze cleaning brushes, I consider the bits to be consumable parts, although at a much less frequent rate!

    Here's more information on gunsmith screwdrivers: Pg. 9 Gunsmithing Screwdrivers

    Chris
    "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

    Abraham Lincoln



  2. #12
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    Following up again on the topic of .22LR ammunition for the Browning Buck Mark, I have taken a little detour into comparing the Buck Mark with a Ruger, specifically a 22/45™ Target (http://www.ruger.com/products/2245Ta...ets/10158.html), to see how the two guns compare in terms of sensitivity to ammunition. The Ruger 22/45™ has exactly the same action parts as the Ruger Mk III: it differs mainly by having a composite frame, different grip angle, and a couple of minor changes to retain pins in the frame.

    Using the same basic test for the Ruger that I used with the Browning, the results are tabulated below. The Ruger digested everything that I fed it, with one malfunction: a misfire that could only be attributed to faulty ammunition. The round fired on the second attempt when it was re-chambered.

    FTE in 20 Rounds
    Make Bullet Type Bullet Weight in Grains Velocity in FPS Power Factor Brand or Description Browning Buck Mark Ruger 22/45™
    Federal Round Nose 40 1,080 43.20 Gold Medal Target 7 0
    Federal Hollow Point 36 1,260 45.36 Champion 0 0
    CCI Hollow Point 36 1,260 45.36 Mini-Mag™ Varmint 0 0
    Remington Round Nose 40 1,150 46.00 22 Target 0 0
    Remington Hollow Point 36 1,280 46.08 Golden Bullet 0 0/1*
    CCI Round Nose 40 1,235 49.40 Mini-Mag™ 0 0
    Winchester Hollow Point 40 1,280 51.20 USA 1 0
    Winchester Round Nose 40 1,300 52.00 Super Speed RN 0 0
    * Note: One round misfired, but fired on the second attempt.

    So, why is the Browning more sensitive to "light" ammunition, namely the low-powered Federal Gold Medal Target?

    It appears that the Buck Mark slide simply offers more resistance to blowback than does the Ruger bolt. I compared the weight of the slides and the approximate amount of spring force applied by the recoil spring, and put the results in yet another small table (below).

    Contrary to my initial impression, the Ruger slide (bolt, in their case) is actually lighter than the Browning component.

    The spring force estimate was gathered by simply opening the slide of each gun just enough to insert the finger of a trigger pull gauge, pulling back until I saw the slide start to move, and then noting the reading on the gauge. Not precise, I admit, but at least it gave me a rough idea of the comparative spring force involved.

    Make Slide Weight in Ounces Recoil Spring Power in Pounds
    Browning Buck Mark 5.2 ∼4
    Ruger 22/45™ 4.8 ∼3.5

    So, I conclude that the combination of a lighter slide and a lighter recoil spring gives the Ruger the ability to cycle lower-powered “target” ammo better than the Browning Buck Mark.

    Chris
    Last edited by cohland; 09-24-2013 at 01:54 PM.
    "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

    Abraham Lincoln



  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by cohland View Post
    The Gunsmith Screwdrivers I use have a handle and a set of interchangeable bits, and I use these on ALL guns. These are good to have because you need to have a precise fit of the bit to the screw to avoid damaging gun screws. I believe this is so because gun screws often have to be installed (or removed) with a good deal of pressure, and because the screws are not always hardened (especially on some makes, like Uberti). Having a perfect bit-to-screw fit ensures that you can get the job done without damaging the screw, or having the screwdriver slip off the screw and scratch the gun. Consider the consequences of a screwdriver slipping and scratching a collectible handgun, versus slipping and scratching a two-by-four in your garage, and you begin to understand why the precision fit is needed, and why they can be so expensive.

    Here is a selection of sets from Brownells:

    MAGNA-TIP SUPER SETS? | Brownells.

    Here are more modestly-priced sets from MidwayUSA:

    Wheeler Engineering 89-Piece Professional-Plus Gunsmithing Screwdriver

    Chapman Model 8900 27-Piece Deluxe Screwdriver Set

    Wheeler Engineering 28-Piece Space-Saver Gunsmithing Screwdriver Set

    I used the basic Chapman set from MidwayUSA for many years, but when I started to work on my own more expensive guns, I went for the more elaborate Magna-Tip set from Brownells. With the Brownells set, you can replace every single individual bit if you damage one, which sometimes happens.

    It's important that the bits are "appropriately hardened": hard enough to work without breaking in most applications, but soft enough to "give" before the screw head does. Like bronze cleaning brushes, I consider the bits to be consumable parts, although at a much less frequent rate!
    Imagine a complete category of tools that I had never heard of... Gunsmithing screwdrivers. I typed "gunsmithing Screwdrivers" into YouTube and was surprised at how many videos there were.

    Thanks again... Brownells has the best tools... and you can't buy a tool set with empty holes in the box because the next bit you need will be one you don't have... Of course I will now have to buy a set of those gunsmithing screwdrivers...

    Quote Originally Posted by cohland View Post
    Here's more information on gunsmith screwdrivers: Pg. 9 Gunsmithing Screwdrivers

    Chris
    This article is chock full of good information. I have to admit that I haven't given my screwdrivers (or turnscrews ) as much loving care as the author of this article. I have many screwdrivers that have been altered for specific, custom purposes, but most of them were shaped on a bench grinder and came from Sears.

    First time I have heard the term hollow-ground. It makes sense, though. Tapered-ground screwdrivers put pressure at the top of the screw head... just where you don't want it. I have ground a few screwdrivers to a hollow-ground shape without knowing the correct term.

    This has turned out to be a very informative (and quite likely expensive) thread. Thank you once again for sharing your knowledge so freely.
    "While the anti-gunners seem very concerned about the "one life" that your firearm might take -- they are not very concerned about the lives it will save." Jon H. Gutmacher, Florida Firearms - Law, Use & Ownership

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  5. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by cohland View Post
    Following up again on the topic of .22LR ammunition for the Browning Buck Mark, I have taken a little detour into comparing the Buck Mark with a Ruger, specifically a 22/45™ Target (Ruger® 22/45? Target Rimfire Pistol Model 10158), to see how the two guns compare in terms of sensitivity to ammunition. The Ruger 22/45™ has exactly the same action parts as the Ruger Mk III: it differs mainly by having a composite frame, different grip angle, and a couple of minor changes to retain pins in the frame.

    Using the same basic test for the Ruger that I used with the Browning, the results are tabulated below. The Ruger digested everything that I fed it, with one malfunction: a misfire that could only be attributed to faulty ammunition. The round fired on the second attempt when it was re-chambered.

    FTE in 20 Rounds
    Make Bullet Type Bullet Weight in Grains Velocity in FPS Power Factor Brand or Description Browning Buck Mark Ruger 22/45™
    Federal Round Nose 40 1,080 43.20 Gold Medal Target 7 0
    Federal Hollow Point 36 1,260 45.36 Champion 0 0
    CCI Hollow Point 36 1,260 45.36 Mini-Mag™ Varmint 0 0
    Remington Round Nose 40 1,150 46.00 22 Target 0 0
    Remington Hollow Point 36 1,280 46.08 Golden Bullet 0 0/1*
    CCI Round Nose 40 1,235 49.40 Mini-Mag™ 0 0
    Winchester Hollow Point 40 1,280 51.20 USA 1 0
    Winchester Round Nose 40 1,300 52.00 Super Speed RN 0 0
    * Note: One round misfired, but fired on the second attempt.
    Interesting that the round that misfired had one of the highest powerfactors of all the ammo you shot. Not sure what would cause misfires in a 22LR... Maybe there was a gap in the primer compound in one small spot... I dunno... I don't know that much about rimfire ammunition.

    Sure does seem that the Ruger Mk III is less sensitive to ammunition though.

    Could you tell any difference in felt recoil between the different ammunition? Not sure if it would be as noticeable as larger centerfire cartridges... I don't shoot rimfire pistols very often.

    Quote Originally Posted by cohland View Post
    So, why is the Browning more sensitive to "light" ammunition, namely the low-powered Federal Gold Medal Target?

    It appears that the Buck Mark slide simply offers more resistance to blowback than does the Ruger bolt. I compared the weight of the slides and the approximate amount of spring force applied by the recoil spring, and put the results in yet another small table (below).

    Contrary to my initial impression, the Ruger slide (bolt, in their case) is actually lighter than the Browning component.

    The spring force estimate was gathered by simply opening the slide of each gun just enough to insert the finger of a trigger pull gauge, pulling back until I saw the slide start to move, and then noting the reading on the gauge. Not precise, I admit, but at least it gave me a rough idea of the comparative spring force involved.

    Make Slide Weight in Ounces Recoil Spring Power in Pounds
    Browning Buck Mark 5.2 ∼4
    Ruger 22/45™ 4.8 ∼3.5

    So, I conclude that the combination of a lighter slide and a lighter recoil spring gives the Ruger the ability to cycle lower-powered “target” ammo better than the Browning Buck Mark.

    Chris
    Excellent forensic analysis!

    I suspect you are right.
    "While the anti-gunners seem very concerned about the "one life" that your firearm might take -- they are not very concerned about the lives it will save." Jon H. Gutmacher, Florida Firearms - Law, Use & Ownership

  6. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by __jb View Post
    Interesting that the round that misfired had one of the highest powerfactors of all the ammo you shot. Not sure what would cause misfires in a 22LR... Maybe there was a gap in the primer compound in one small spot... I dunno... I don't know that much about rimfire ammunition.
    My guess is that the misfire came from just what you mentioned, faulty application of the primer compound. It's not all that rare, but people who shoot a lot of rimfire (steel shooters, at least at my club) just deal with it and move on. They have a pretty good sense of what ammunition is reliable: Federal Champion and anything from CCI are two brands that I commonly see at matches, as I recall, but it has been a while. I am sure that somewhere out there in the land of rimfire, somebody has done a study of ammunition reliability. We all shoot CCI when we can get it, of that much I'm sure.

    ..Could you tell any difference in felt recoil between the different ammunition? Not sure if it would be as noticeable as larger centerfire cartridges... I don't shoot rimfire pistols very often...
    Yes, you can feel the difference in recoil between the top and bottom ends of the power factor scale all right, but it's not a huge difference, as you correctly guessed.

    Chris
    "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

    Abraham Lincoln



  7. #16
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    Looked at a nice Browning Buckmark in a local gun shop yesterday... They are difficult to find. I like everything about the Buckmark... Nice feel... Good grip angle... Good weight...

    One thing I noticed was that it wouldn't fire without the magazine... Was your Buckmark like that too? Is it something you can remove/strip out?
    "While the anti-gunners seem very concerned about the "one life" that your firearm might take -- they are not very concerned about the lives it will save." Jon H. Gutmacher, Florida Firearms - Law, Use & Ownership

  8. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by __jb View Post
    ..One thing I noticed was that it wouldn't fire without the magazine... Was your Buckmark like that too? Is it something you can remove/strip out?
    Mine will fire without a magazine being present, apparently the magazine safety is a new feature. If you Google "disconnect remove buckmark magazine safety" you will see that others have broken the trail, so to speak.

    Chris
    "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

    Abraham Lincoln



  9. #18
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    Chris,
    I recently picked up a Buckmark at a local pawn shop. It looked like new but I could tell it had a lot of rounds through it.
    It had not been cleaned in some time: the safety was so tight it would barely move. For $150 I said what that the heck.
    Took it home and gave it a thorough cleaning. I took it to the range and fired basically the same brands of ammo that
    you compared and I had exactly the same results. Federal Gold Medal Target just would not work. Every round after the
    first stove piped, FTE or FTF. Everything else fired perfectly. BTW: This pistol was born in 1985, the year the Buckmark
    was introduced. I have ordered all new springs and a recoil spring assembly for it. Will try to get some pics up soon.
    If you really want to fly, get out of the plane.

    Member: NRA, IDPA, GSSF
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  10. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowdie View Post
    Chris,
    I recently picked up a Buckmark at a local pawn shop. It looked like new but I could tell it had a lot of rounds through it.
    It had not been cleaned in some time: the safety was so tight it would barely move. For $150 I said what that the heck.
    Took it home and gave it a thorough cleaning. I took it to the range and fired basically the same brands of ammo that
    you compared and I had exactly the same results. Federal Gold Medal Target just would not work. Every round after the
    first stove piped, FTE or FTF. Everything else fired perfectly. BTW: This pistol was born in 1985, the year the Buckmark
    was introduced. I have ordered all new springs and a recoil spring assembly for it. Will try to get some pics up soon.
    Rowdie,

    That is a heck of a good price for a BuckMark. Which barrel length did you get?

    With this winter weather (up here it just rains all the time) I'm going to take my BuckMark to the indoor .22 range at my gun club this week for a little trigger time. Still can't get .22LR around here, so we're careful about how much we shoot...

    Chris
    "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

    Abraham Lincoln



  11. #20
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    It's a 5.5 inch barrel. I think that maybe the only length they made that first year. Not sure.
    It has a fixed rear sight. I've been looking at some adjustable rear sights and a fiber optic front.
    I'm a bit confused because some sights are marked "not for use on pre-2001 models". It's is
    probably more accurate than I am with the sights that are one it!
    .22LR has been a lot more plentiful here in past few months. I picked up 1200 rounds of CCI
    Mini-Mag HP ($110) at a local gun shop. They said they had plenty more!
    Thanks for posting this thread. Good info.
    If you really want to fly, get out of the plane.

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