The cold hard truth - Page 2
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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiamiGLock View Post
    You mean to tell me the SWAT team that was there did not have training for the situation. I do not believe that. I understand that the average police officer is not trained for situations like this, but a SWAT team should be able to handle it. I also disagree with your statement "A Law Enforcement Officers job is not to protect an individual.". An officers job is to uphold the law and there are laws against harming other people.

    I was referring to the average Officer that had arrived on scene. However, although I don't know the given training that those SWAT Officer had or had not received, the process at that time was to secure the scene, setup a perimeter, and try to negotiate, based on things that I have read about that specific incident and my limited knowledge on the subject.

    Regarding you second statement, Yes there are laws against people harming other people, however, if someone was to walk up to you right now and try to harm/kill you, is there an Officer standing besides you right now? It is YOUR responsibility to provide for YOUR own safety, not a Law Enforcement Officer.
    In honor of AW2 Jason Lawson (The Law). We'll never forget you.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLaw View Post
    I was referring to the average Officer that had arrived on scene. However, although I don't know the given training that those SWAT Officer had or had not received, the process at that time was to secure the scene, setup a perimeter, and try to negotiate, based on things that I have read about that specific incident and my limited knowledge on the subject.

    Regarding you second statement, Yes there are laws against people harming other people, however, if someone was to walk up to you right now and try to harm/kill you, is there an Officer standing besides you right now? It is YOUR responsibility to provide for YOUR own safety, not a Law Enforcement Officer.
    I am not expecting or saying there should be an officer to protect me anywhere any time, there is a reason I decided to purchase a firearm and obtain my concealed carry permit. However I think there are certain places, such as schools, where police need to go above and beyond what is expected of them in order to protect people and maintain peace. There are places where no one can carry to protect themselves such as schools and states like New Jersey where it is extremely difficult for anyone to carry anywhere. It is good to hear that officers have received additional training in order to better handle situations like this. I am also aware that the situation was not up to the individual officer as to enter or not, I think it was the system that failed, not the officers. I think that is why this thread was started, not to attack the men and women who serve this country but the system that has failed them and us.

  3. #13
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    I am so tired of Monday morning quarterbacks who have never carried a badge and had to defend the public. It’s easy to talk about donut eating ticket quota cops, especially if you have never searched for an armed burglar in a dark building. Tell the mother who lost her child to a speeder or the husband that lost his wife to someone who ran a stop sign that writing traffic citations is a waste of time. Some people watch too much television. Everybody wants to be a SWAT cop until the lead starts flying. Whether a cop is behind a desk, running radar, or serving warrants, he is providing a service that 99% of the public doesn’t have the strength of character to do. Until you have walked in a cop’s shoes, you don’t have a right to have an opinion on how he should do his job.
    As a Christian, you may be the only bible someone ever reads.

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  5. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedG954 View Post
    I am so tired of Monday morning quarterbacks who have never carried a badge and had to defend the public. It’s easy to talk about donut eating ticket quota cops, especially if you have never searched for an armed burglar in a dark building. Tell the mother who lost her child to a speeder or the husband that lost his wife to someone who ran a stop sign that writing traffic citations is a waste of time. Some people watch too much television. Everybody wants to be a SWAT cop until the lead starts flying. Whether a cop is behind a desk, running radar, or serving warrants, he is providing a service that 99% of the public doesn’t have the strength of character to do. Until you have walked in a cop’s shoes, you don’t have a right to have an opinion on how he should do his job.
    I agree with you Ted. I live in Denver, am former LE, SWAT trained with what was then Metro-Dade PD, know some of the SWAT officers involved in Columbine and have read the transcripts of the officers involved. The biggest problems faced in that situation were: a large number of agencies responding with no viable means of cross communication, officers from one Dept. dressed out with officers from another, setting up perimeters on an extremely large area, and no one entity with Command and Control. This was not one agencies failure, but a C3 failure (Command, Control, and Communications). The officers did in fact save many lives by acting without direction from command authority. It was a tragedy that hadn't been experienced before in this region. It has lead to many changes, but it's still not perfect.
    "We do not rise too the level of our expectations, rather we fall to the level of our training"
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  6. #15
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    Well This Monday morning quarterback will remind you that SCOTUS has ruled on numerous cases that LEO are not required to protect citizens period. I have no issue with any LEO that treats the citizen that provides him/her with the means to make a living with courtesy and respect, and most of all adhere to your OATH. Across our country with LEO layoffs police chiefs and sheriffs are not responding to crimes, but are using LEO to generate income for the city, county and state governments. If you feel underappreciated for doing your job which you willingly accepted perhaps it time for a career change. I do not have a problem with LEO at all, my problems is with the system that uses LEO as enforcers not peace officers. A small % of LEO get a badge on their chest and gun on their hip think they are above the law and can treat those of us who pay their wages like slaves instead of citizens. I live in a town of 8,000 people and have a couple bad apples in the PD. So far the county boys seem up and up. On a lighter note I myself love donuts.

  7. #16
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    I think everyone should do some research and study on the "Public Duty Doctrine". Google it and you may find some interesting info.
    I love donuts also, but have managed to live without them for the last 5 years!
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  8. #17
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    Thanks Rowdie and IMO it supports my earlier statements. And since the PDD exists how can any laws be passed the denies anyone the right to protectect themselves, their family or their property? what part of 2A allows any laws that restrict the the right to keep and bear arms? And I will include that right SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!!!! So any LEO that makes an arrest for a firearm violation is violating their oath. In wisconsin I am required by law to leave my home in the event of a criminal breaking into my home. I only have the right to self defense if I feel my life is threatened. If someone kicks in my door at anytime I feel my life is threatened, and some like minded people are in prison for wacking the bad guy. That brings up the no knock warrent problem. Door kicked in in the middle of the night you shoot the intruder and oh crap it's the cops and I just killed one of them. If I survive (99.9% chance his buddies kill me) I am charged with murder and face life in prison or death. If the LE community has any questions or wants to search my home simply knock on my door, present the warrent and search my home. Oh by the way I plead the 5th, any questions will be answered by my attny. About the donut problem I promise to have an extra from time while thinking of you my friend

  9. #18
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    Who's got donuts?
    "We do not rise too the level of our expectations, rather we fall to the level of our training"
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  10. #19
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    I'm having some jelly filled right now

  11. #20
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    Well I must say I thought this tread would go farther than it has. Is the issues raised that don't want to be faced? Our Republic is in trouble guys and gals and the only hope we have is stand up and take it back. Our elected servents keep talking about democracy. Our country is not a democracy it is a republic. I am sad that LEO brings up donuts,when our country is bankrupt. I am sad that the americans pay more attention to american idol than what is happening to our country.I am sad when LEO shoots a 9 yeas old in the throat because they where in fear of their life kicking in the wrong door at 3am. Leo keep up the no knocks and wonder why the citizens lose trust in you. When a son calls 911 for his 90 year old mother and her oxygen hose is stepped on by police because she ask's them to leave her home and they say they where in fear for their life. I will stomp my own snakes from now on. The Hero's in blue seem to add more problems than solutions. When my wife had a problem and I called 911 my front door was kicked in by police with guns drawn and pointed at me. They said they had to make sure it was safe for the EMT's to enter. This is NOT the america I grew up in.

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